« Druid polearms on the PTR | Main | Cat DPS talents »

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Karthis

Fuck. Yes.

Twekki

I think you're suggesting the wrong fix to this problem. You ask for aoe threat to be reduced but then whine about how all trash pulls are able to be pack pulled, grouped up and aoe'd down.

Wouldn't the problem then be that the trash is to weak and have too few interesting or debilitating abilities to pack tank?

If you have a 2 pull, why don't you cc one and single target dps the other? AoE doesn't provide a dps boost on 2 targets, so it's not because it's really any faster.

If you have a 3 pull, again, why don't you cc 2 of them and single dps one at a time? AoE would pretty much require the same amount of time to down a 3 pack as single targetting them.

If there's a 6 pack, and blizzard decided that because there are 6 mobs, on an average geared tank, each should do about 1/6th the dps, what's the point of crowd control?

You crowd control a healer because it sucks seeing the mobs health going up instead of down. You crowd control the ranged casters because they are hard to keep close enough to build threat. You crowd control melee because when they gang up, they beat too hard on the tank or apply horrible debuffs. You don't cc because a tank can't manage to keep up enough threat on all of the mobs at the same time.

If you nerf aoe threat, the result is still pulling a 6 pack, single targeting until one of the mobs is down, then, because the tank had a decent amount of time to make up the threat that the nerf took away, you go back to aoe-ing the other 5 down.

The solution for making trash pulls more interesting isn't reducing the aoe threat of tanks, its by making the fights more, well, interesting. Buff the damage of melee trash so most would have a belly full of bear sandwiches. Add ranged casters that randomly do miserable debuffs. Implement more Mind Controling mobs. Cast mobs as Warlocks and bring out their glass cannon imps... Add in mobs that cast stoneskin at 30% and require a high level of DPS to kill, meanwhile applying a stacking acid debuff requiring you to separate any 2 packs... Add in trash that apply stacking mortal wounds that require tanks to alternate taunting...

While I absolutely agree that the trash in Naxx is booring, I also very much disagree that nerfing aoe threat is in any way the solution.

~Twekki - Baelgun

Cassytha

I am not sure what the solution is, but from the DPS side, I totally agree that I am not pleased with the direction that Blizzard has taken. I am watching some fellow-DPSers mindlessly AoE'ing one or two mobs. Why? It is neither mana efficient nor tactically sound (in some cases)...especially, if they don't wait for the tanks to have aggro.

I guess that I have always loved crowd-control and having to use one's brain to "solve" the puzzle.

So, I would add...

Dear Blizzard, please, don't reward mediocre play or tactics. Encouraging excellence is a win win win!

Sincerely yours...:)

Nelson

Twekki, thanks for your thoughtful comment. You're right, there's two separate reasons for crowd control right now. The one I talk about is threat management; one reason you used to CC stuff, particularly in 5 mans, is because the tank can't manage aggro on all of them. There is another reason for CC, which is some mob is so dangerous you can't afford to leave it up uncontrolled while killing other trash. There's a couple of examples of that in Naxx that I allude to, Hyjal's Abominations were like that too. It's definitely possible that the harder raid instances we're promised will feature more dangerous trash that requires more thought, and I hope so. But I still miss the aggro management problem.

Cassy, interesting to hear it from the DPS' point of view. Spamming AoE is just as mindless for DPS as for tanks, although a little too mindless will get you killed (as you note). I know when I'm DPS I'm happiest with complex rotations, like the new cat DPS or an affliction warlock rotating DoTs. More like that please, Blizzard!

Revaan

Whatever the solution to the problem, can we make trash healing at least marginally more interesting? Once trash got mastered, healing is incredibly boring. Was pre-3.0, still is post-3.0. The only time that trash seemed interesting was if there was something so many of us had to cleanse that we spent a significant amount of time not healing and let the raid pick up some significant amount of damage.

dfv

As someone who tanked all the BC raid content (up to Illidan anyway), but who rerolled at WotLK time and am still only 71, I can sympathise with you guys as it must feel very hollow right now. I'm sure our raid leader is fine about the trash nerf because at least we don't have the occasional wipes on Leo trash anymore, but it's nice to be SCARED occasionally!

It's seems to be the perfect time to bring an Alt up really because people are still likely to allow you into the 5 and 10 mans even if undergeared because they're not all that hard purportedly.

Darkbane

I agree completely.

Haven't gotten to the raid content yet, but the instance and leveling fights are just boring for the most part.

It's a real pity, because Blizz did really well on the other aspects of Lich King--the lore makes sense and is actually interesting (ok, like everyone else, I wish I had a fast-forward button in CoT Strat), and the visuals are superb.

Infinitum

Its really a tug-of-war type of battle for the developers.

This is the first time they are trying to make all content accessible to almost everyone that can get a 10 or 25 man group going. AoE tanking is just one aspect of the many sacrifices needed in order to accomplish this.

The obvious downside is that players that have been playing and improving with their knowledge/experience of past instances are forced to go through these types of tasks that seem more suited for a Molten Core type instance.

It will be interesting to see if the upcoming Ulduar instance provides any sort of change to this methodology.


Sofea

I agree that AoE has become to prevelant. I enjoy getting to AoE down some packs of Mobs now. AoE sort of felt like a gimmik before. But Right now I agree it's just too easy. In Hyjal you AoE things down becasue honestly, you have to. It would be nigh impossible to single target everything down. But you're right 3 mobs or more and just let blizzard fly. This is especially true for a mage where things die so quickly that I might only get 1 or 2 spells off. A big channeled Ao spell, well at least I feel like I'm doing something.

I think the solution though is not to nerf threat. It's to up the damage these AoE packs do to the tank. The problem is not only that you can hold threat on 2 pulls of mobs, it's that they can't kill you. What if the mobs hit so hard that you couldn't survive 6 mobs on you. Now you have to CC, or offtank 2 or 3. (In an off tank situation you could even still AoE, but at least it would be more interesting.)

In a conversation with Beroth I stated that Wrath feels like it's still in Gamma version. It's out of Beta, but the game balance and tuning issues feel like they are still beign worked out. I only hope that there is enough new content introduced that will be tweaked appropriately in the months ahead.

LRNs (Rhus)

In conceptual form AoE offers accessibility & is fun. In practice, it's been a disaster.

My solution is to mix things up. Give me diversity! Give me the feel of progression.

Give me an instance where there's AoE and there's an absolute must for CC. I thing the "speed" of instances is working for me. Just tweak a third of the pulls to force creativity. Also, make everything harder by 10-20%. Increase trash health. Increase their tricks. Force us to select mobs for interrupts. My group practically ignores spells that should be interrupted and instead just pours on more AoE. Why think when you can kill stuff by spamming your AoE talents?

Kal

I think that AoE has its place, but as part of trash pulls/gauntlets. CoT Strat is a great example of something that should work - if the mobs were harder. Have the pace really high, hordes of annoying dork adds + a couple really hard-hitting mobs. You need AoE threat and single-target damage. Combine this with mobs that need to be controlled and you've got some interesting pulls.

So far, the most interesting pulls are things like Heroic AN's skirmishers. These are few and far between. I don't think they need to make it so that AoE threat isn't usable; I think they need to make it so that the mobs just hit too damn hard to have 4-5 up at a time.

Circumstance

I think the vast majority of the people posting on this have neither cleared 25naxx, or are working 'really hard' to do so. If you're at the point right now where naxx is a joke, and you can clear it in 1 night, then you understand what Blizzard is doing.

Naxx is a joke for a reason. It's to get people ready, it's to please the masses who QQ'd for years that unless they played 5 hours a day they couldn't have epics.

Ulduar is coming, and it will be harder. Don't wonder, don't question, don't worry.. it's going to be harder, and tuned for raids that need a challenge.

Stop crying about Naxx, ffs. It's starting to get annoying.

Chris

This for me has been an issue since 3.0

I currently play a paladin tank and have seriously gotten so sick of the "Grab everything, LOS, AOE, Loot, Next pack" cycle.

I understand that they want to make the game accessible to all sorts of people, but even in T4/ZA gear during BC you couldnt AOE entire hallways of Heroic SH

Now, When running heroic Nexus, After that first dragon is dead, i can quite comfortably round up all the mobs until i hit the first boss.... Thats just stupid imho, There needs to be a better balance between it.

CC'ing every single pull is a waste of time and adds to frustration, But at least give me SOMETHING that needs it. The only time i've seen CC used through-out all of WOTLK so far is in Arena..

The comments to this entry are closed.